Official Luthiers Forum!

So... I've got three student builders who are each building an OM under my guidance over the next couple of weeks. We actually started a couple of months ago, working twice a week for four hours each session. We've arrived at the finishing process on the bodies, and we're attaching the fretboard to the neck on the neck assemblies. That's the back story.

My actual question is this: how do you get students' attention, and help them focus, when you need to communicate something that is really important? I don't want to sound like a fussy mother hen with them, and I don't want to come across like a drill sargent - but sometimes these guys get way too casual, and tune me out and start working before I'm finished explaining, only to go about the step poorly, commit errors, not really understand what they're trying to do.

Part of the problem is that they get way too busy in conversation and witty repartee, to the point where they almost completely forget their sense of purpose. Sometimes it looks more like their goal is just to make some saw dust, rather than to make a precision muslcal instrument! Don't get me wrong, these are wonderful students, really talented musicians, and nice people. But they often just don't listen to my instructions and especially my warnings about what mistakes to look out for and how to avoid them.

I get pretty baffled as to what to do for them in order to help them develop the attention to detail, the patience, and the 'eye' necessary for good work. I'm *amazed* at how quickly they will walk away from a step and call it 'done'.

I think I need some sports/coaching tips, or theatrical, or musical conductor vocabulary to communicate things like 'Hey, team, your heads aren't in the game, let's re-focus', or 'OK, stop, let's pick up again at measure 17, and this time really think about what you're playing', or something like that.

We're all invested in the outcome of this endeavor; them, b/c if all goes right, they walk away with an amazing instrument; me, b/c I want them to be happy, and also b/c though the students are (at least nominally) the builders, the guitars are walking out of my shop, and I want to maintain a certain quality.

Those of you who have coached individuals builders or taught group classes, do you have any insights? Do you experience moments like this with adult builders? Is it just that for a few more years, these guys are just going to be knuckly-head adolescents, and the best we can do is help them reduce the errors they're bound to make?

I hope some of you can relate to this, and maybe chime in and offer me a few words of wisdom. This isn't the first group that I've worked with, and I guess every group has been equally challenging. (Am I just getting too old for this? Is this why a lot of builders build alone???)

Thanks in advance for any input any of you can offer!
Ken

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

I personally feel this type of endeavor works best one on one. In that setting, the teacher sets the tone, and the student (usually) follows.
This might also simply be a reflection of my own experiences and ability as an instructor.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Try Tweeting them....

Just make sure you use the tweet language like"

tak Ur Hmr N liTly tAp tHe NeK iN 2 th tenon.

If you use regular English they will loose interest and ignore you.



Cheers
Bob

I remind them that it is their guitar and they can choose to follow my direction which is formed by a career in luthiery of a decade and a half, or do it there way. Either way won't hurt my feelings and sometimes a bad mistake is the best lesson.

Ken, can you provide a little more information? What age are the students? (I am guessing that they are young adults?) Is this a private course offered at your shop or through a community college?

Bring one of your guitars as an example of what you want them to achieve. If you had a guitar with a poor finish as well, you could ask them which one they would prefer for themselves.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

First of all, thanks to all who have responded!

Anthony, it's a course offered through the independent high school where I work. I teach the course every 2-3 years, as soon as there's another group of students who are dedicated and serious about taking it on. So they are 16-17 years old. I usually have about 3-4 students. It gets hectic with just those few.

Of course, a lot of what they're learning is the basics of woodworking - that is a big part of what makes it so challenging. They're not getting a lot of practice before jumping right in and working on their own guitars!! Little chance to work out the errors on a harm-free piece of scrap, or an easier project, like a cutting board for grandma - they're jumping into the deep water, doing pretty intricate procedures, binding, purfling, bracing, etc!

Alex, yes, I have 5 guitars at my house right now that I've built. The two nicer / newer ones stay in cases. I should take those out again tomorrow, and let them take a close look! I think frequent visual reminders of that sort may go a long way toward helping them keep their end goal in mind.

Best,
Ken

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

Oh, and I teach out of my house and shop. They come here for their building. There's just too many specialized tools and materials to take the whole show to the shop at school, plus no humidity control, no TOOL control either - so that wouldn't work!!

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

As a person who has had a thousand students, some guitar builders, some athletes, some classroom stuff, I feel that YOU are the key. If you are enthusiastic, completely engaged, they will want to see what you're doin'. Did you have an off day?

Sorry--

Mikey

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

No apologies necessary, Mikey! Yeah, some days are better than others - for me AND for them - and some days I deal with the challenges better than others! There are so many factors at work/play here, so many distractions, their smart phones, videos on the computer, they are tempted to slip into the adjoining room and play guitar instead of BUILD a guitar, the couch (literally, it sucks them into it... next thing you know one of them is snoozing!)... but yeah, you may be right. Some of it also may be how energetic I am on any given day.

Ken

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Ken Mitchell
Durham, NC

-" they're jumping into the deep water, doing pretty intricate procedures, binding, purfling, bracing, etc!"

Although you may want them to build a first rate instrument, if you could simplify the design to eliminate some of the tedious details and concentrate on making a more easily (and quickly) built guitar that plays well it may hold their interest better.
I worked with a boy scout troop- helping them build dulcimers. Some of the kids were really into it and some just went through the motions. The completion rate was about 75%, which all things considered, wasn't too bad. A more complex instrument wouldn't have fared so well.
16 and 17 year old students may not have enough discipline to build a guitar. Kids today have a much longer childhood. That's why you see 30 year olds still living at home. It's an evolutionary thing and one reason kids are so much smarter than their parents. Ask any anthropologist.

Ken , teachers have been asking the same question for thousands of years.

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We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

I completely understand how frustrating it can be teaching this age of kids. Years working with scouts reminded me that much of the time they have the attention span of a gnat--unless it involved food, music, farting or the opposite sex. Had them do several small projects in my shop like simple 3-prong coat racks, game boards, etc. and either the parents or myself had to step in. Seemed it would have been easier to get them to clean their rooms than spend more than a nanosecond sanding. In the end I learned that it's more important to keep them busy and engaged than to turn out something anywhere near perfect. If you're worried about the product leaving your shop have them design their own logo for the headplate. I guess what might get their attention the most is not how pretty the final guitar turns out, but if it can sound anything like one. Perhaps you could let them grade each other?

Have you tried showing them a picture of Miley Cyrus?

Seriously though good on ya for teaching these guys!

Doc - what's wrong with farting???? I still laugh at that stuff (so long as they are mine....

These things have helped me:
- Grade the quality of their work, their work style, and cleanup. My class is only 1 credit (and guitar building only half of that), but when they are graded, they care a lot more.
- Simplify the design -- a lot. I can't imagine teaching our beginner students (college juniors, 16 students per lab section, 3 lab sections) how to build a standard acoustic guitar design -- way too complex, IMO. I started with a cigar box design, then year after year, slowly added complexity as I could prepare for and manage the process.
- Only allow minimal and carefully chosen customization. Changes from the standard design tend to be major time sinks.
- Write meticulous instructions based on extensive and annotated pics and figures. Minimize 'paragraph text'--it's hard to get them read and remember those. Or make carefully edited youtube videos and drop the written instructions (too hard to keep both written and videos up to date).
- Build fixtures or special tools for high-skill steps, or make/buy some parts to condense their work to a more manageable level. I make the bridges for them.
- Show enthusiasm... that's easy.
- Have high expectations and give high support.

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David Malicky

Ken, I had a hunch that they are in their teens. I built my first guitar in grade 12 woodshop as my major project (circa 1977). It was a telecaster knockoff made with African mahogany and a maple fret board. My shop teacher Mr. Hughes did not know anything about guitar building but he sure did by the time I was finished . What a lovely man he was. I could not imagine building an acoustic guitar as my first project at that age of your students even with the abundance of jigs and fixtures I suspect that you have in your shop. Maybe an easier instrument might grab your students more (probably to late now given where you are in the term).

I had the chance to see Serge de Jonge's school of lutherie 2 years ago. Many of the students were in their late teens early 20's and hosteled in cabins on site for the course duration. With the coin they or their parents put out for the course you know the kids were dedicated.

I admire you for taking on this teaching assignment. To me blessed are the educators (and it does not matter what you teach) as my personal view is that you are amongst the most important people in society.

I think part of the reason they are there is for the community. They are probably that casual because they feel very comfortable with you. As an educator, I have always seen the actual teaching points as merely a medium for creating better citizens. You are obviously an artist, but you were not always one. Try to remember what you were like at that age and enjoy the ride. Despite their distractedness, they WILL pick up skills, and you may ignite a fire in one of them.

So they are 16-17 years old. I usually have about 3-4 students. It gets hectic with just those few.

Bless you! You can't instill the intensity -- sounds like you are just cultivating the seeds. Maybe they just thought it was a good idea to build a guitar? If asked for help in the future that's the one/s with potential. You have to demand attention when making an important point ---- result will vary!

Way to go and best of luck.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

As a person the also does classes I learned early that more than 2 it all one can handle and young minds need a lot of attention. They often are full of energy and have lots of questions.
One thing is that they are not afraid of jumping ahead and are often hard to control but when you find the combination , they can be rewarding students. You can try to pair them so they work together. That may help. You are the teacher so you need to gain control. You can't talk down to them , you may even be surprised at what they know.

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it